Perhaps you failed to read the part of my post that says the lower level monsters could be swapped out with the higher level monsters and applied just the same? Play the lottery, you have a better chance of winning.
Perhaps you failed to read the part of my post that says the lower level monsters could be swapped out with the higher level monsters and applied just the same? Play the lottery, you have a better chance of winning.
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Originally Posted by Curtis Smale
I agree with Randy. There seems to be some strange misconceptions going on here.
Now first, Curtis, you say that you can never use octos on anything except low grade bases whereas you can always use ichis. However, you are forgetting a couple of things:
- Not everyone has a very large stockpile of goo
- Not everyone has a very upgraded monster housing
- Not everyone has upgraded hatcheries or use/buy shiny to compensate for build speeds
Now, what i actually mean by saying this is that there are lots of bases a single person just won't annihilate in 4 attacks unless he is using very high goo, spacing and time consuming monsters. In other words if not using the very high resource and production time cost to wipe a base the "proper" way, you will need more than 4 attacks. Which in turn means damage protection to the person you attack. Attacking someone and knowing you will probably have to soften them up first, then wait for the (1 hour or so) protection to fade and then go at it again means that time might not be an issue for you as much as the base costs.
Lets look at base production costs and stats here:
Octo: 1000 hp, 400 goo, 10 spaces, 15 seconds production time [2.5 hp/goo, 26 goo/sec]
Ichi: 2000 hp, 4000 goo, 20 spaces, 1 minute 40 seconds production time [0.5 hp/goo, 40 goo/sec]
Crab: 4000 hp, 20000 goo, 40 spaces, 12 minutes 30 seconds production time [0.2 hp/goo, 26.6 goo/sec]
So, looking at these numbers its easy to see that
a) Octos are a good choice in goo costs IF they can tank towers long enough relative to the base layout
b) Octos are a good choice in production time IF they can tank towers long enough relative to the base layout
c) Crabs are a poor deal looking at goo cost relative to hp, but relative to goo needed per second they are better than ichis
d) Crabs are the best choice if dealing with a larger cluster of (4/5) splash towers
e) Ichis are a good deal if you are not dealing with too many grouped up splash towers (some thing as octo vs ichi). But they have the worst goo/sec depletion
In other words
- depending on your goo stock or goo production per second, octos might be a better choice than ichis, even though they are inferior
- depending on your total housing and the tower grouping you want to take out, any of the 3 tanks monsters may be the better choice in different combinations
Now, the last thing here is the kicker:
Many times i've had identical groups flung in at identical positions towards an identical looking base, but had different pathing results. Scouts or not (traps), a deviation from your planned monster route may spell total chaos. Currently deviations seem to happen A LOT. A deviation in a crab squad is disastrous on goo/time. Ichis also. Octos however you can easily afford to lose if they happen to suddenly change their mind and go for a burger before getting back to business.
This last reason is why i since the update have been pretty much resorting to octo/pokey groups alone. It takes a lot longer to loot a good base. It takes a lot more waves. It may take several mini protection phases. But it WILL be overall cheaper if just a single of these deviations occur.
In short, bigger isn't always better. It depends on your actual point of view (goo stock, goo/sec, available time, hatchery upgrades and available housing).
@Blinkgoddess
Some of us have chosen not to goof off for 7 days while watching an inert base grow. To me (as an example) doing so would be even more boring than plowing in farmville. Breaking your beginner protection early means you can get to battle other people who has also (usually at least) broken protection early. Which in turn means lots of fun evolving your base and fighting for resources. Since resources will actually matter contrary to high level players or players who just boosted their base until there was very little left to upgrade before breaking protection.
In short for some of us breaking protection early is the difference between a static game and a fun game.
@David, please do fix pathing. Pretty pretty pretty please! - And if you feel it is currently working as intented, do tell us the mechanics behind the many sudden random "burger runs" (aka same scenario, differnt path)
Now, feel free to flame away ^^
Edit:
I've intentionally left out the tank type monsters damage as these fall into the same category of problems to consider as housing/production/group size
Edit 2:
For comparison on angles, i am lvl 27, TH4/Towers4. I am mentioning this because as Randy pointed out, his strategy tips are general pointers, and interchanging monsters depending on your situation and needs is implied
Last edited by Tommy Renard; 05-11-2010 at 07:03 PM.
Super Fail of a thread that started out so promising......hijacked....lol
Octos ARE viable up until around mid-range. It's just simple math. Take an example w/ 800 housing.
1 wave of 40 Ichis = 160,000goo / ~13.3min build time.
1 wave of 80 Octos = 32,000goo / ~4min build time.
You can get 5 waves of Octos for the cost of 1 wave of Ichis.
You can get 4 waves of Octos built and attacked in the time of building 1 wave of Ichis.
I did this often while leveling up. I almost preferred Octos until I started hitting lvl 5 towers. Zerg rushes are always strong early game.
I agree to use Octos rather than Ichis in case of::
- Low supply on Goo << This is the most important
- have many preys in map to loot(Weak def, fatty silos) ---------- (Higher chance to loot great amount of Goo result in able to continue the attack)
- have a lot of time to play (able to come back and send in another 4 waves of Octos after 1-hour damage protection)
I guess the funny thing is I don't even use Octo's anymore lol. I have my bank maxed with Goo so I can afford to spend the money on Ichi's and time isn't an issue for me, just had to defend myself. Thanks for the support though Tommy. I, too, left protection as soon as I could attack someone. It seems like 10 years ago I sent out my first Fling of 20 Pokey's.... ahh the good ol' days! And I love the publicity my topic is getting
Ah no worries Randy.
I supported the thread more to spread the knowledge that David has actually done quite a good job of balancing (most of) the monsters, allowing for great versatility in a wide array of scenarios. In my current one i can either produce a proper attack or two during a whole night and sit on my butt for the rest for possible a great looting, but also quite possibly (with the current bugs) nothing if it goes wrong (pathing/monster freezes). Or i can fling lowbie swarms all night and not worry about goo for, granted, slim pickings, but slowly and surely gain a lot more resources than i have invested. All the while i'm watching a movie or two
Shame the trolls ruined what started out as a very promising thread.
Randy: "Here is the battle report for LOW level attacks against other LOW level players." -- Why would you so openly defeat yourself this way. My entire point this whole time is that your advice is good only for weaker players. Then you use proof as if you think it supports you. I told you that Ichis are ALWAYS usable and they are. I've never had a deficiency of goo. Ichis pack a better punch and that is just the way it is. Even you admit to always using Ichis.
2. interchangeable - capable of replacing or changing places with something else; permitting mutual substitution without loss of function or suitability; "interchangeable electric outlets" "interchangeable parts"
This definition of interchangeable confirms what I have been saying this whole time. You can take out Octos and Pokeys and put in Ichis and Finks, but at higher levels you CANNOT do the opposite. Because the reverse is not possible, this is not an act of interchangeability. This is an act of rendering the previous obsolete. Since swapping implies interchangeability and interchangeability is not possible, swapping is not possible. Like I said, the moment you complete research on the Ichi, Octo becomes obsolete. There is no need for it anymore.
Tommy Renard: Allow me to point out all your mistakes:
(1) You say... "However, you are forgetting a couple of things:" and then list 3 irrelevant items. You don't need lots of goo to make waves of Ichis. I have a max of nearly 5M of resources but I've sent wave after wave of Ichis with less than 1/2M easily. Less than 1/10th of my max storage and I was still amassing waves. Yu don't need upgrading housing to make Ichis waves. You can send 30 Ichis with just the basic 3 housing without upgrades. And for the level of person who is likely to have not upgraded those, 30 is enough to take on their peers. You think that I make any use of upgraded hatcheries or hatchery upgrades purchased in the store? I don't. I've never really used more than 1 or 2 slots (which come with basic hatchery) and never even once used the overdrive. So why even bring that up?
(2) You say... "Lets look at base production costs and stats here:" -- Big mistake. Production costs and stats do not mean everything. I produced a wave of Ichis and sent them at a base. I produced a wave of Crabs and attacked the same, unchanged base, from the same starting location. The monsters took the same path. The Ichis got farthur than the Crabs. There were no deviating monsters to ruin the Crabs' advantage against splashes. So why? Speed. When you start comparing things you must compare all things. For example, SPLASH has greater effect against greater numbers, so Octos are at a disadvantage. Slower monsters are at a disadvantage, so Crabs have a hard time. As per statistical balancing, Ichis have good speed and lower number while not being on either extreme and prove themselves to be a valuable asset over both the Octos and Crabs.
speedaemon: No one here is saying that Octos can't be used for weaker players. We are arguing that Ichis rule over Octos in all cases and that Octos become useless against powerful people.
Everyone: Ultimately, due to the 1hr protection after 4 attacks, it is impractical to even use Octos even if they were superior since you'll have to wait more than an hour to get back to work. Saying that production speed of Octos actually matters is wrong. Doing 4 waves of Ichis it is really easy to simply wait 5-10 minutes so that the 4th attack lands on 1hr 1min so that the person does not get protection. Since Octos can do the same, there really is no production speed winner here EXCEPT that 4 waves of Ichis will do FAR more damage than 4 waves of Octos. So we are ultimately left with the fact that Ichis beat out Octos for speed of damage/production time.
Ok, I guess it's time for a fifth grade lesson here. By your own words and definition for interchangeable you prove yourself not only wrong, but a complete moron.
Quote from you;
interchangeable - capable of replacing or changing places with something else;
Replace/Replacing taken from Meriam Webster Dictionary;
3 : to put something new in the place of <replace a worn carpet>;
<replace a worn carpet>; <replace an Octo with an Ichi>
Also, we will go on to what you, yourself stated;
Since swapping implies interchangeability;
Implied (also implies) taken from Meriam Webster Dictionary
2 : to involve or indicate by inference, association, or necessary consequence rather than by direct statement <rights imply obligations>
3 : to contain potentially
4 : to express indirectly <his silence implied consent>
As you can see, the word imply(ies/ed) means can be or should be, but isn't necessarily.
Just because YOU think swapping implies interchangeability does not mean that's what I am saying or what everyone else perceives.
Thank you for playing Curtis. You get a silver star for the day.
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